The Random Discussion / Argument Thread

Sun Ra

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China wouldn't invade us because we are in alliance with America who we would call on & to add "you" would want our powers that be to do so if China did

Ukraine have lots of countries who are " Standing With Them " but at the same time as standing with them they are standing behind America waiting for them to move , maybe as med mentioned the tide is turning on America but imo i don't think so , i could be wrong of cause , time will tell

As to Russia withdrawing , that would be nice but can't see that happening unless some sort of deal is done , right or wrong , good or bad it is what it is

A solution needs to be found by whomever asap
Left of centre view - Maybe Trump can "do a deal" whereby Putin fucks off out of Ukraine and leaves it's boarders as they are
now and Trump "cuts Putin in" on his takeover of the Gaza Riviera to help Putin be able to re-pay Zelensky for the Ukraine re-build after Russia has bombed the shit out of it ? Oh yeah, and relocate the Palestinians to the Ukraine as part of it.

Problem(s) be solved. 🤪

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med180

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China wouldn't invade us because we are in alliance with America who we would call on & to add "you" would want our powers that be to do so if China did

Ukraine have lots of countries who are " Standing With Them " but at the same time as standing with them they are standing behind America waiting for them to move , maybe as med mentioned the tide is turning on America but imo i don't think so , i could be wrong of cause , time will tell

As to Russia withdrawing , that would be nice but can't see that happening unless some sort of deal is done , right or wrong , good or bad it is what it is

A solution needs to be found by whomever asap
Ukraine was offered iron clad security guarantees by the US to give up their nukes, look where that got them. Do you think Australia is somehow special and the US will be coming to our aid?!? That's what these "normal trips" china has begun undertaking around our country will put to the test... I have no faith in the US sticking to its word.
 

Sun Ra

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Some good news for a change ......


More of this coming soon, I hope ......

View attachment 58077
Great reading on this here .......

 

itchybro

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as far as what America will or won't do if we were attacked by China , you & i have no idea one way or the other , because you have no faith in them or i do have faith in them makes no difference whether they will or won't support Australia , i'm going off our support of them in the middle east confrontations in the past , you seem to be going off " i don't like them " which seems more your opinion which your completely entitled to

Ukraine giving up nukes is much bigger than your making out it is & go's way back to the early 90's
if your prepared to take the time here is how i understand that situation which i'll c & p here , you can see there are allot more moving parts to your statement & of cause this info does not show all the backroom deals & discussions that i'm sure were had by all parties involved
this post is not an i'm right your wrong & America / Russia are angles statement , it just can't be summed up as you have in a short sentence or 2

At the time of Ukraine’s independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine held the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world, including an estimated 1,900 strategic warheads, 176 intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs), and 44 strategic bombers. By 1996, Ukraine had returned all of its nuclear warheads to Russia in exchange for economic aid and security assurances, and in December 1994, Ukraine became a non-nuclear weapon state-party to the 1968 nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT). The last strategic nuclear delivery vehicle in Ukraine was eliminated in 2001 under the 1991 Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty (START). It took years of political maneuvering and diplomatic work, starting with the Lisbon Protocol in 1992, to remove the weapons and nuclear infrastructure from Ukraine.

1990 Declaration of Sovereignty
Partly in an effort to gain international recognition, Ukraine’s pre-independence movement supported efforts to join the NPT as a non-nuclear weapon state. With its Declaration of Sovereignty on July 16, 1990, Ukraine pledged “not to accept, produce, or acquire nuclear weapons." However, despite this public commitment, Ukrainian politicians were not entirely united by the idea. Some felt that Russia was a still a threat and that they should keep the weapons as a deterrent.

1991 Minsk Agreement on Strategic Forces
With the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the Commonwealth of Independent States signed the Minsk Agreement on December 30, 1991, agreeing that the Russian government would be given charge of all nuclear armaments. However, as long as the weapons remained in Belarus, Ukraine, and Kazakhstan, the governments of those countries would have the right to veto their use. The target date for dismantling the weapons was set for the end of 1994.

1992 Lisbon Protocol
Ukraine signed the Lisbon Protocol on May 23, 1992. The protocol sought to return the nuclear weapons in Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Ukraine to Russia. All states were to join START and the NPT. However, within Ukraine, there was little motion towards the ratification of START, joining the NPT, or overall denuclearization. The protocol required that Ukraine adhere to the NPT as quickly as possible, but it gave the country up to seven years to follow through.

By late 1992, the Ukrainian parliament was vocalizing more pro-nuclear views. Some believed that Ukraine was entitled to at least temporary nuclear weapon status. Perhaps optimistically, the U.S. government promised Ukraine $175 million in dismantlement assistance. Instead, the Ukrainian government began implementing administrative management of the nuclear forces and claimed ownership of the warheads.

In late April 1993, 162 Ukrainian politicians signed a statement to add 13 preconditions for ratification of START, frustrating the ratification process. The preconditions required security assurances from Russia and the United States, foreign aid for dismantlement, and compensation for the nuclear material. Additionally, they stated that Ukraine would dismantle only 36 percent of its delivery vehicles and 42 percent of its warheads, leaving the rest under Ukrainian control. Russia and the United States criticized these demands, but Ukraine did not budge. In May 1993, the United States said that if Ukraine were to ratify START, Washington would provide more financial assistance. This began subsequent discussions between Ukraine, Russia, and the United States over the future of Ukrainian denuclearization.

1993 Massandra Accords
Ukrainian and Russian officials reached a set of agreements, including protocols on nuclear weapons dismantlement, procedure, and terms of compensation. However, the two sides could not agree on the final document, and the summit ultimately failed.

1994 Trilateral Statement
The Massandra Accords set the stage for the ultimately successful trilateral talks. As the United States mediated between Russia and Ukraine, the three countries signed the Trilateral Statement on January 14, 1994. Ukraine committed to full disarmament, including strategic weapons, in exchange for economic support and security assurances from the United States and Russia. Ukraine agreed to transfer its nuclear warheads to Russia and accepted U.S. assistance in dismantling missiles, bombers, and nuclear infrastructure. Ukraine’s warheads would be dismantled in Russia, and Ukraine would receive compensation for the commercial value of the highly enriched uranium. Ukraine ratified START on February 3, 1994, repealing its earlier preconditions, but it would not accede to the NPT without further security assurances.

1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances
To solidify security commitments to Ukraine, the United States, Russia, and the United Kingdom signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances on December 5, 1994. A political agreement in accordance with the principles of the Helsinki Accords, the memorandum included security assurances against the threat or use of force against Ukraine’s territory or political independence. The countries promised to respect the sovereignty and existing borders of Ukraine. Parallel memorandums were signed for Belarus and Kazakhstan as well. In response, Ukraine officially acceded to the NPT as a non-nuclear weapon state on December 5, 1994. That move met the final condition for ratification of START, and on the same day, the five START states-parties exchanged instruments of ratification, bringing the treaty into force.

2009 Joint Declaration by Russia and the United States
Russia and the United States released a joint statement in 2009 confirming that the security assurances made in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum would still be valid after START expired in 2009.

2014 Russian Annexation of Crimea
Following months of political unrest and the abrupt departure of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, Russian troops entered the Crimean peninsula of Ukraine in March 2014. On March 18, over the protests of the acting government in Kiev, the UN Security Council, and Western governments, Russia declared the annexation of Crimea. The United States, the United Kingdom, and Ukraine called the action a blatant violation of the security assurances in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum. However, according to the Russian Foreign Ministry, “the security assurances were given to the legitimate government of Ukraine but not to the forces that came to power following the coup d'etat.”
 

itchybro

Sultan Of Soil
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Timeline

  • July 16, 1990: Ukraine’s Declaration of Sovereignty
  • July 31, 1991: The United States and the Soviet Union sign START
  • Dec. 26, 1991: The Soviet Union officially dissolves, delaying entry into force of START
  • Dec. 30, 1991: Minsk Agreement on Strategic Forces
    • The Commonwealth of Independent States agrees that strategic forces would be under the joint command of the former Soviet Union states
  • May 23, 1992: Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and the United States sign the Lisbon Protocol
    • The protocol calls for the return of nuclear weapons in three formerly Soviet states to Russia and for all states to be added to the START treaty and join the NPT
  • Jan. 14, 1994: Ukraine, Russia, and the United States sign the Trilateral Statement
    • Ukraine commits to full disarmament, including strategic offensive weapons, in exchange for economic support and security assurances from the United States and Russia
  • Sept. 4, 1993: Massandra Accords
    • Failed summit between Russian and Ukrainian governments
  • Dec. 5, 1994: Russia, Ukraine, United States, and the United Kingdom sign the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances
    • Includes security assurances against the threat or use of force against Ukraine’s territory or political independence
  • Dec. 5, 1994: Ukraine submits its instrument of accession to the NPT as a non-nuclear weapon state
    • The five START parties exchange instruments of ratification for START, which enters into force
  • June 1, 1996: Ukraine transfers its last nuclear warhead to Russia
  • October 30, 2001: Ukraine eliminates its last strategic nuclear weapon delivery vehicle
  • Dec. 4, 2009: Joint Statement by Russia and the United States
    • The two countries confirm the security guarantees made in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum
  • March 18, 2014: Russia annexes Ukraine's Crimean peninsula and provides supports an ongoing insurrection by separatist forces in the eastern Luhansk and Donetsk provinces of Ukraine.
  • Late 2021 to early 2022: Russia engages in "military exercises" with a force estimated to exceed 150,000 military personnel involving land-, sea-, and air-based weaponry on the northern, eastern, and southern borders of Ukraine raising fears of an invasion by Russia.
  • February 24, 2022: Russia began a large-scale military attack and invasion of Ukraine, with planes and missile launcher attacks on Ukrainian cities, airports, and military infrastructure across much of the country.
 

med180

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All information I've read before. It doesn't explain how Trumps plan for Ukraine to surrender to Russia and the US's will is somehow "a plan that ticks all the boxes for everybody " as you put it. My opinion on what I think the US may do is not just based on "i don't like them" but on history and a lifetime of watching their actions on the world stage.
Australia supporting them in the past will not necessarily translate to them helping us in the future.
 

itchybro

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All information I've read before. It doesn't explain how Trumps plan for Ukraine to surrender to Russia and the US's will is somehow "a plan that ticks all the boxes for everybody " as you put it. My opinion on what I think the US may do is not just based on "i don't like them" but on history and a lifetime of watching their actions on the world stage.
Australia supporting them in the past will not necessarily translate to them helping us in the future.
so you have America's plan / Deal written out do you , your guess is as good as mine as to what the deal is or will be when / if signed , so tell us a better plan/deal that doesn't involve the US & all parties will agree to

just so it's clear , i'm on the side of stopping war , however that comes about , with or without the US
Also to be clear there is no doubt the CIA / America has been involved in some shady shit in other countries including there own over many years , but in this case if EU countries are saying the US have to be involved in a Ukraine Russia deal then what's the alternative , just saying the US are cunts doesn't cut it
 

med180

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so you have America's plan / Deal written out do you , your guess is as good as mine as to what the deal is or will be when / if signed , so tell us a better plan/deal that doesn't involve the US & all parties will agree to

just so it's clear , i'm on the side of stopping war , however that comes about , with or without the US
Also to be clear there is no doubt the CIA / America has been involved in some shady shit in other countries including there own over many years , but in this case if EU countries are saying the US have to be involved in a Ukraine Russia deal then what's the alternative , just saying the US are cunts doesn't cut it
As I said before if a fair and honest deal was being made both sides of the conflict would be at the table, not a mediator organising it with the aggressor behind everyone's back.
Even Hamas is involved in deals being brokered with Israel. Yet Ukraine, a sovereign nation cannot be involved in its own peace talks...actually no witnesses 🤣
 

itchybro

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so why aren't the 2 sides working it out without a mediator ?

even early on there was a mediator ( Turkey ) that helped setup the first deal , that Boris Johnson went over & poo pooed at the behest of the Biden administration as it was reported on back then
 

med180

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so why aren't the 2 sides working it out without a mediator ?

even early on there was a mediator ( Turkey ) that helped setup the first deal , that Boris Johnson went over & poo pooed at the behest of the Biden administration as it was reported on back then
Give it a day or two for the fiasco in the US to sink in, there are already qoutes in the media from France etc saying that the US can longer be trusted! Further options will be surely be announced by Europe in the coming days.
It's ridiculous to think the leader of a country would sign over half his country's mineral rights, without seeing the fine print and having security guarantees which Trump himself has said Ukraine doesn't need security guarantees because he's making the deal for them 🤣
If you look at the news coming out, the US stands alone on this...next to Russia!
 

itchybro

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Give it a day or two for the fiasco in the US to sink in, there are already qoutes in the media from France etc saying that the US can longer be trusted! Further options will be surely be announced by Europe in the coming days.
It's ridiculous to think the leader of a country would sign over half his country's mineral rights, without seeing the fine print and having security guarantees which Trump himself has said Ukraine doesn't need security guarantees because he's making the deal for them 🤣
If you look at the news coming out, the US stands alone on this...next to Russia!
yes coming days will see one way or another
 

Sedge

The man your mother warned you about.
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To put the current Ukrainian situation into a better perspective for us here.

What if China invaded Australia !!!!

Should Australia just hand over our country to China if they invade us?

What other choice do WE have in that scenario.?

We should just surrender in order to maintain world peace, right? It's exactly what's happening in Ukraine right now.

The elephant in the room........if Russia REALLY wants peace, they can withdraw their troops from Ukraine today, and stop the invasion. Why is this option not being discussed?
So you condemn musk for raising his arm in jubilation,
But you sympathise with Ukraine that has a nazi battalion of soldiers on its payroll ..
 

benn0

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There's all sorts of weirdo mercenaries looking for active duty.

On both sides.

North Koreans are also in there, grabbing Russian money.

Nothing to see here. It's a war zone.
Kim Jong Un is grabbing Russain money, they will be getting "paid" in grand socialist currency or food rations for their families, poor koreans are addicted to porn, such decadent and western problem
 

Sedge

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There's all sorts of weirdo mercenaries looking for active duty.

On both sides.

North Koreans are also in there, grabbing Russian money.

Nothing to see here. It's a war zone.
Nutters are everywhere ,,but you ignore which government arms ,pays and legitimises them ,,and that is the government you sympathise with.
That wasn't jubilation & you KNOW it. Acknowledge it for what it was.
acknowledge ? Are you kidding ,,

You could have acknowledged all the facts of what trump accomplished in his last term ,after saying he did nothing,,but you didn’t

you could have acknowledged the fact that trump started the Abraham accord ,,after saying he did nothing ,but you didnt

Yet you have the gall to tell me to acknowledge utter nonsense.
Get real !
 
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